How to Make a Hit Podcast

Katie Martin (KM): People sometimes ask us what makes a good podcast. My first answer to that question is, I don’t know. We just do our podcast the way that is natural to us.

Robert Armstrong (RA): It does help that we get along. Yes. Listeners feel that we kind of tolerate each other pretty well.

KM: I think we learn a lot through the process of preparing to launch the podcast and actually launching the podcast. So, we work with an external production company who have a better idea than us around how these things work and what sort of podcast people like to listen to. Initially we were quite ambitious. There was talk of us putting this podcast out, I think like four times a week. The maximum we can do is two, and I think that was the right decision. We toyed around with a couple of formats, different ways to address issues, different levels of granularity that we might want to go into. And we just found that we naturally gravitated towards a chatty, informal, lightweight, short format. I think that kind of relates to a really important thing about the way that we do our podcast, which is it’s totally unscripted, totally unrehearsed.

RA: I think that’s true. But part of our preparation, right, is just that we’re journalists. Yeah, we wrote the pieces already. We develop the intellectual capital when we are writing it, and then we just come on the show and dispense it. We have all the stuff rattling around in our heads.

KM: When we do it well, which is obviously all the time, it sounds like we’ve just bumped into each other and that’s how it’s supposed to sound. It’s not that there’s no planning, right? We will have a view of kind of what we’re likely to talk about for like a Thursday and a Tuesday, sort of stretching out for a couple of weeks. But, as Mike Tyson so wisely said, everyone has a plan till you get punched in the face. Because something happens and we have to just pivot onto something.

RA: Something that is just true of journalism generally — the big story is the big story. And you just have to obey what the news gods have given you. And even if you feel you’ve seen it all before or you understand or it’s not interesting, the world knows better.

KM: I always say we’re speaking to people who are accountants, interior designers, whoever. People always say, talk as if it’s your mother, explaining to them what is fun and interesting about markets and finance today.

RA: The funny thing is, the experienced audience — the audience who does know the material really well — they don’t care if you pause for a second and say, «What we mean when we say bear market is that the market is going down.» They’re not like, «Oh, my intelligence has been insulted.»

KM: There is particularly a thing around economics, finance, markets, where people feel intimidated by the subject matter. They feel like they’re going to school in some way. And that’s not the vibe that we want to give at all.

RA: There’s only so much information that the podcast format can carry. A podcast is not an article. An article is dense and thick, and it’s got arguments and sub-arguments. There’s only so much the world wants of you. I mean, 15 minutes of us, I think, is enough for plenty. And it’s the same thing when you’re writing. The world doesn’t always need 900 words or 1500 words. Often what the world needs is 300 good words. What I’m still struggling to be good at — but I struggled more at the beginning — was just saying less. I’m just the guy who wants to say it all, and it doesn’t work. Yeah, it’s not that you can say nothing. It’s not that you can be fluffy, but you got to pick. Keep it focused. Yeah. And pick your spots. And that’s a struggle for me to this day.

KM: When people listen to a podcast, often they really feel like they know you. Because you’re in their ear once or twice a week. Yeah. They feel very familiar with you.

RA: That’s success. That’s what success looks like — that they feel they’re in the room with us. You don’t have to be perfect. Audio is a very nice medium because it’s forgiving. If you have to stop and think for a second, the audience actually likes that. So you don’t have to be like a news presenter, all polished, going through the bullet points or whatever. If you’re like, «Wait, that’s confusing, I have to think that through for a second,» admitting ignorance, taking a moment to think things over, changing your mind — it’s powerful. One thing that is perhaps surprising is that brilliant people are not always brilliant guests. A lot of brilliant people want a monologue, and the producer has to come on and just politely say, «You got to kick the ball around here.»

KM: You’re here for a chat, not to make a speech. And you have producers and editors at the other end of the line, and sometimes they will just step in and say, «You’ve messed up that word,» or «I don’t understand what you’re talking about.» And it’s just like with being edited in written form. Don’t take it personally. Don’t get upset about it.

RA: Thick skin is very important if you’re going to be in media. Every day someone is going to tell you you’re an idiot. And you just have to not mind.

KM: Sometimes they’ll be right. People also had very strong views about my hair.

RA: And they’re talking, «You’re bald. You have bad hair.» «The glasses are funny.»

KM: The whole thing. And you just laugh it off. I genuinely thought it was very funny.

RA: I am bald, by the way.

KM: I do have short hair.