Should Architects Stop Using Concrete and Steel?

Yasmeen Lari

We can’t keep on inflicting so much damage to the planet. All this extractive kind of materials, industrial materials, got to give up. You know architects, they should learn not to really use these very highly carbon-intensive materials.

 

David Goodman

Doctor Yasmeen Lari, thank you so much for being with us today.

 

Yasmeen Lari

Pleasure to be here.

 

David Goodman

I’d like to begin our conversation talking about your past. Before we get into the substance of what you’re doing now, your path itself is of interest, I think. You are, of course, the first woman to be registered as an architect in Pakistan. And about 25 years ago, you walked away from a very successful practice as an architect to begin your current venture, the Heritage Foundation Pakistan. But I’d like you to explain to us a bit your path. What was it like to become the first woman to be registered as an architect in Pakistan?

 

Yasmeen Lari

You know, David, what’s interesting about working in Pakistan is there’s so many opportunities. So it didn’t matter that I was a woman. It was difficult in the beginning. I came back from England, from Oxford School of Architecture, I graduated from there and I came back. And of course, there were very few architects at the time and sadly, I just happened to be the first one.

Because, you know, it was the last century, I’m talking of the early 1960s, but as I was trained to, try to sort of always try to do iconic kind of architecture. So when I got the opportunity, so I did. And so that’s how it went on. And, you know, the problem is when you get involved in that kind of a cycle of producing this for the corporate sector, you just carry on and you know, that can be pretty bad for your own soul, I think. So I did that for a long time, for about 36 years.

 

David Goodman

And that process of realizing you wanted to make a change. Could you talk to us about that? How did you begin to realize that you wanted to do something different and that the thing you wanted to do was what you’re currently doing?

 

Yasmeen Lari

My family, what can I say? It was kind of very anglicized. My father had served with the British before independence. So basically, we all looked to the West for all kind of solutions. And I had no idea about my own culture or my traditions. So when I went back, certainly I realized there was this wealth of kind of tradition that was available.

I realized there was so much poverty in my country. There was just so much that I did not know much about. And I felt that I could not really carry on with the way I was doing. So I decided to give up.

 

David Goodman

And so what did you do? Tell us about that moment.

 

Yasmeen Lari

Well, it is very interesting because UNESCO got hold of me with UNESCO World Heritage of Lahore Fort. And I went there and I was there three years as a national advisor, and I really learned how to use lime which I had never learned before. I had no idea. And, sadly, I found it was such a fantastic material.

So really, ever since I gave up my practice, I have not used cement or steel at all because I found lime to be such a wonderful, benign material.

 

David Goodman

Why? Why not use cement or steel?

 

Yasmeen Lari

Oh, because you must know. I mean, it’s very high carbon. We can’t keep on inflicting so much damage to the planet. All this extractive kind of materials, these industrial materials. Got to give up. You’ve got to lower the carbon footprint. And, you know, architects should learn not to really use these very highly carbon intensive materials. They are very damaging.

40% of emissions are because of the way we construct. So I think we need to just rethink everything, reset ourselves because we can’t go on like this.

 

David Goodman

You began then to set up the Heritage Foundation Pakistan, which has as its focus not only conservation, of the built heritage of Pakistan, but also dealing with housing crisis, dealing with inequalities. Can you talk to us specifically about how your work addresses those things?

 

Yasmeen Lari

We established the Heritage Foundation of Pakistan in 1980 as a family trust, my husband and I. Really it was all about learning more about our own heritage. So he was a good photographer. And so he went on a lot of research. We did a lot of documentation of cities, of historic architecture, of vernacular architecture as well, but really a search for my own roots that helped me to carry on with that.

And then working with the, with UNESCO and with the World Heritage Site was another I mean, it was an amazing experience. So I learned a lot, but also because we were restoring this very beautiful Sheesh Mahal ceiling. And I learned how to use lime in so many different ways. I’ve really learned also as to how to deal with the problems that I finally became familiar with, which was humanitarian work.

I had never done that before in my life. And then the earthquake of 2005 happened. Major disaster. I think something like 400,000 families were displaced. I went there, I had no idea what an architect would do, I had no skills. I had never done it before. And suddenly so much help came from all over the world. All kind of volunteers arrived, young people and, you know, faculty members from universities and our own people.

 

David Goodman

In this process, you’ve spoken about the importance of empowerment, empowerment through the building, that it’s not simply a gift of a building, but rather, a learning opportunity and a moment of self empowerment. Can you talk about that?

 

Yasmeen Lari

Ever since I’ve been engaged in this humanitarian work, I’ve learned so much about materials and also about how you can change the definition of, you know, scarcity and abundance. Like, we go to a poor area, we think there’s nothing. But I’ve learned there’s so much there. There’s so many natural materials available. So basically I’m using those to create architecture.

Architecture becomes a tool really for providing agency, for providing empowerment. It’s like co-building and co-creation, it’s no longer just mine. So basically when you work with people, you have to, you know, give over control. So I talk a lot about decarbonization, democratization and also decolonization.

 

David Goodman

But I want to challenge you here, okay, just for a second, because there are generations of architects who, in many cases through the state or through big NGOs, have developed huge plans for dealing with social inequality. And your approach is a critique of those big schemes. What is your critique of those kinds of schemes?

 

Yasmeen Lari

Well, first of all, I think, yes, of course, they are wonderful designs. And I really admire people who, you know, do this. But on the other hand, I feel that it’s really unreachable by common people. They have beautiful designs, but they cannot be replicated unless you get a lot of charity, a lot of funding. You know, there are 3 billion people who are really destitute today in the world.

 

In my own country, there’s something like 170 million that we need to reach out to. My issue is I want to do it without any donors, without any funding, without any charity, and get the people themselves to do it themselves.

 

David Goodman

And as part of this, you’ve talked about four zeros, right? In New, in your process, could you share with us those four zeros and how they contribute to the solution?

 

Yasmeen Lari

Well, there are sort of four zero, the zero carbon, zero waste, zero charity. And that leads to zero poverty. It’s all about, you know, circular economy. It’s all about repurposing all the waste that you find everywhere. It’s all about using all the natural materials. That’s the whole thing about abundance. In my rural area, where I’m dealing with a million families, I have no problem.

I do not need any funding because there’s so much material available, there’s so much waste available that we can reuse it.

 

David Goodman

In that, it’s about empowering. It’s about using what’s there. What is the role of the architect?

 

Yasmeen Lari

The architect becomes a facilitator. They don’t impose anything, but they make it happen because, you know, we’ve learned the tools. We’ve got the right tools. Right? First is design. The other is context. And then we have this great kind of facility of bringing about consensus, there used to be a whole army of consultants. And you have to bring them all together. Right? I mean, because you want them to do what you want them to do. That’s what you do there too. This is the same thing. And what I did with conservation. My God, I know the tradition that I have in my country, the kind of techniques and materials that you can use. So I’m just kind of drawing upon them.

 

If you look at my LOG which is made out of bamboo, I don’t use wood. And the bamboo is really, the forms are derived from my own traditional kind of architecture. Or if I make my Chulah the stove, that’s now world famous, 1 million of them have been built, which is on a platform to save them from any flooding.

Because normally they would be making a, dish on this open-fire stove, which gives, you know, all kinds of problems, eye problems, chest problems. Children get burnt and the smoke gets out of the chimney and the fuel is nothing but cow dung and sawdust. And so it’s really totally zero carbon. So this is how architecture can be used actually in so many different ways. Not to impress others, but to give people and you know give it a soul really.

 

David Goodman

You’ve spoken about ego, even in your own work, kind of self-critical, you know, in your earlier work that it was too much, perhaps about the ego of the client or your ego as an architect or…

 

Yasmeen Lari

I’ve got zero ego now.

 

David Goodman

But, you know, could ego be healthy? A certain amount of ego, for the architect?

 

Yasmeen Lari

I think you have to have the ego. I think without that, you will not be able to create what you want to do. But the ego mostly was reserved for people, for wealthy clients, because you felt that you had to create something that could be extraordinary. I mean, this is how we are trained. But on the other hand, I’m now willing to learn a lot rather than just, you know, imposing my own ideas. I think that’s probably the difference. But once you got an ego, it never really leaves you unfortunately.

 

David Goodman

In the first phase of your career, you essentially dismiss it. I do. It’s many years of important work. Looking at it now, what positive can you take out of that work? What are you proud of in that phase?

 

Yasmeen Lari

Well, first of all, I think I have to defer to Oliver Wainwright. Who is an architectural critic. And he wrote in The Guardian, he once wrote about me, and he said she’s atoning for the work that she had done. I used much concrete, so much steel. There were massive buildings. I mean, one of them was the largest of the time in Pakistan, something like 750,000 square foot of area, which had not been done before. So I’d been guilty of a lot of that kind of extravagance, if you like. And so now I feel that, I wouldn’t do it now. Not today. That was the 80s. Very heady times, I think, all over the world. You could just get any kind of material you could do whatever. But I think the world has now changed with climate change.

It’s displacement. There’s so much poverty. There’s so much, you know, deprivation everywhere. I mean, now we need to relate to the other reality. You’re training all these young people. But the fact is they will again go into the same machine that all of us have been through, and they will never get a chance to use their creativity for the good of humanity.

 

David Goodman

I think one of the challenges that educators have in architecture is there is a general consensus now that it’s an end of a cycle. And our students know it. The faculty generally know it, but we don’t know yet what’s coming. We can assume a certain professional context where I think we can assume is we want our students to go out with a certain idealism, ambition, and a little bit of ego.

I think it’s healthy, but I would throw it back again to you. If you were running a school, what would be the biggest thing you would change in architecture education?

 

Yasmeen Lari

I find that to train them and then leave them thrown to the wolves, basically to do go and do whatever they can, but they can’t because mainstream architecture still remains the same as it was in the last century when I graduated. There are areas where people need help. But architects don’t do it because they’re waiting for a commission.

So I want them to become more like entrepreneurs. So how can you help them to do that if they want to go and let’s say, work on the uplift of a community, bring about eco-urbanism somewhere, or do something like that which will improve the environment of the area. There are no mainstream practices that will allow them to do that.

 

David Goodman

I think most educators, would see our role as empowers, right, so that the student will eventually have the tools and the discretion to figure it out.

 

Yasmeen Lari

What you’re doing is right. But my question is that there are no other direction after they graduate, where are they? Where are the different mainstream practices that would talk of humanitarianism or talk of, you know, eco-urbanism or talk of community uplift?

 

David Goodman

So what advice would you give them?

 

Yasmeen Lari

Well, I would like very much for educators to think their role also to be beyond just graduating them and getting them out of the university. And there’s no reason why you can’t create, an architectural incubator like the tech industry does, that nurture their professions for three years? Why don’t we do that? And then funding is not a problem.

There are all these big product manufacturers. There’s the institutes of architects. The money can be directed towards them so that for three years, they know they can work on a particular field. And I’m not saying you should say what they should do. They should decide. And then they’ll make their own career path, and they don’t need to go to another firm.

 

David Goodman

And with that challenge, I’m afraid our time is up here. We’ll take that challenge on, Doctor Yasmeen Lari, thank you for being here today.

 

Yasmeen Lari

Thank you very much.